Topic: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 5 Weeks Ago |
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--------------------------- WEEK 1 of 18 Mon. Jan 28th --------------------
This thread is in support of Rian Sanders and others who previously posted interest in training for a 1/2 Iron in 2008. I'll be posting the weekly training plan as per the Tri-Newbie Online guidance (18 Week Half Ironman - Intermediate Level - 1.2 Mile Swim 56 Mile Bike 13.1 Mile Run). So login, benchmark yourself and find some additonal support in your endurance challenge!
If you plan on racing on June 14, 2008, as I am, then you have completed week 1 OF 18 !! If not, adjust your schedule accordingly.
Mon Bike 20 miles; run 40 minutes
Tues Swim 1000 yds.
Wed Bike 20 miles.; run 30 min
Thur Swim 1000 yds.
Fri Bike 25 miles.; run 50 min
Sat Swim 1000 yds.
Sun Rest
Good Luck.
---------------------------- Week 1 of 18 ---------------------------------- |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 5 Weeks Ago |
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The 1/2 iron training program "Tri-Newbie Online" guidance found at
http://www.trinewbies.com/tno_HIM.asp
How is your training plan coming along?!
Good luck with your program. Chime in with your points of suggestions, advice struggles and of course accomplishments.
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Nicole VA Member Since: 11/24/2006 Total Posts: 127 5 Weeks Ago |
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Here's my schedule for the week...my half IM is in 15 weeks though and right now I'm focusing on two things...1. getting back into an organized training regimine and 2. running speed!!
Monday: 4 miles run easy, master's swim (3800-4500 meters)
Tuesday: Track workout (first of the year--yikes!!)
Wednesday: Master's swim (3800-4500 meters)
Thursday: Spinning workout (1:20)
Friday: 4 mile run, swim--3000 meters (can be done on Saturday)
Saturday: 7 mile run, swim if not done Friday
Sunday: 40 mile ride
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Vickie TX Member Since: 03/10/2006 Total Posts: 86 5 Weeks Ago |
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PLAN??? What plan? You mean, I need to have a plan? Oops! I fell off the wagon and have the wagon tracks to prove it! Hopefully I will post later this week. I have my last running event on Sunday, a 1/2 marathon, so then its back to work. Good luck all! |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Todd CT Member Since: 04/11/2006 Total Posts: 75 5 Weeks Ago |
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Plan? we don't need no stink'n plan!
Seriously, good thread Greg!
One book that I used my first year was "The 12 Week Triathlete" by Tom Holland.
His book was very helpful in that he provides 12 week training routines for "finish" and "performance" triathlon training. He also provides good info for backround information such as nutrition, transitions and weight training.
I have my main events scheduled as a 70.3 in Providence RI on july 13 and the Timberman 70.3 on august 18. I also have multiple sprints, oly's and road races scheduled as primarily training episodes.This year I hope to shatter some PR's!
Basically I have broken down my training as Jan-Mar base training Zone 2 (65-75% max heart rate). April, May and first 2 weeks in june will be a slow build phase of increasing intensity speed work. Last 2weeks of june and first 2 weeks of july will be a graduall taper to the providence 70.3 on 7/13.
Followed by a short recovery and then some LSD work to the Timberman on 8/13.
This is the general plan and will change based on Family, work and hopefully NOT-injury.
My sharing is turned on and you can view my workouts there so I won't post my workouts here.
The big picture plan is to complete 08 injury free with some PR's and the Hartford marathon in october. Then, my youngest starts school full time in fall 08. I'll start training then for a full Iron in 09.
But, you know what poet Robert Burns said about the best laid plans!!!!!!!
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 5 Weeks Ago |
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Aye, plans!
Glad to see some of you have your game face on for '08. Vickie does too but won't let on as so.
Nicole, I see you have again earned your nickname "fish" by swimming those awe inspiring yards each week. How about the run...like me I would like to get faster. I am not sure how to best do this. I hear about these "fartleks" but have no idea what they are. If you all have good resource or ideas, feel free to share how your thoughts on "getting faster" without injury.
Todd, I too would like to break some PR's this year but without re'injuring my knee this year. I find that I should be doing some x-training but not sure what (e.g. pilates/fitness yoga, weights, etc.) Also, if the 1/2's go well, I too may consider the IM in '09. Shhhhh, keep it on the low.
Keep the comments and updates coming.
Greg |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Jim CA Member Since: 08/27/2005 Total Posts: 468 5 Weeks Ago |
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Hey greg -
I had to ask about Fartleks last year as well. JC1 told me it was doing intervals. Like jog 2 telephone poles and sprint one, jog 2 and sprint 1, etc.
Also, I am a big believer in strength training as you are heading into the season. You want to keep your muscles and joints strong now as you will most likely cut these back as your event draws near. I also do YOGA, for 2 reasons - - my job it very stationary and it helps me to relax.
Sounds like there may be a group of us gunning for a full in 2009. I am considering IMAZ. What about you all?
JC1.5 |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Todd CT Member Since: 04/11/2006 Total Posts: 75 5 Weeks Ago |
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Hey JC1.5,
I'm looking at Lake Placid and Louisville!
Todd |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Nicole VA Member Since: 11/24/2006 Total Posts: 127 5 Weeks Ago |
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Quick someone revive the old thread where I explained what a fartlek was!! :)
Greg, those are meters not yards swimming!! As far as running speed is concerned I am in no way an expert on the subject. My plan for the year is to have fairly specific pace goals based on what type of workout I am doing. I would think that a solid program would contain both long slower distance (steady state) running combined with tempo runs and some track work (VO2 max). The challenge when working on one discipline yet training for a multisport event is to ballance it all and being patient not expecting big returns right away. I know Alison and others on this site do a lot more organized running sessions through clubs etc...maybe they can shed a bit more light on the subject!! |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Nicole VA Member Since: 11/24/2006 Total Posts: 127 5 Weeks Ago |
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Jim...Fartlek...sounds exactly as it looks!!! Means speed play I believe. It's where you intermingle bits of fast running into your regular running routine. For example...you are running down the trail, the wind blowing lightly in your face you're feeling invincible when you spot a hot chick up ahead, you pick up your pace to catch her and when you settle in beside her you notice it's a he not a she...YIKES...so of course you immediately turn around and settle back into your original pace...then you think to yourself oh my goodness I'm an idiot...so you pick up the pace again to make it look like the original pace pick up was just all part of your workout....and congratulations, you have just done your first fartlek!!! :)
just for grins, this was my explanation of fartlek last year!!! :) |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 5 Weeks Ago |
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Fartlek and shemen....ha ha. What a dialogue Fish. Good visual however.
The guy performing my VO2 test said I should be running 2 minutes hard pushing zone 4 and then cool down for 4 minutes and then repeat the cycle. This will allow the body to expand the VO2 max limiter and prevent the muscles from falling into the same pattern all the time.
As for yoga/stretching. I am taking in a class today along with a light first season swim. I cramped up at my first fitness pilates class!
As for going long...the IMAZ, IMFL, Lake Placid and of course IM Wisconsin are all top options.
Greg |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Jim CA Member Since: 08/27/2005 Total Posts: 468 4 Weeks Ago |
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Yeah I like the idea of IMFL as well. As for the other two, I worry about humidity. I do not work well in it. |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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John co Member Since: 01/07/2008 Total Posts: 3 4 Weeks Ago |
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Hello, I am new to this thread, so I thought I would post this questions out to you all. Anybody doing Wildflower 1/2 IM this year? Or the June 22nd full IM at Coeur d'Alene? |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Jim CA Member Since: 08/27/2005 Total Posts: 468 4 Weeks Ago |
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I was at the WIldflower last year. Fun experience. Have you done the course before? JC1.5 |
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Re: Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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John co Member Since: 01/07/2008 Total Posts: 3 4 Weeks Ago |
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Last year was my first time at WF and I loved it, especially some of the aide stations along the run. Are you doing WF this year? |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Jim CA Member Since: 08/27/2005 Total Posts: 468 4 Weeks Ago |
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Yes - I know what you mean...
No not this year, I would like to, but none of my group wanted to do it again. Perhaps next year.
I may try to make a trip down there with my daughter though.
JC1.5 |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Talia BC Member Since: 04/16/2007 Total Posts: 26 4 Weeks Ago |
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Hey All, I'm training for my 1st 1/2 on June 1st!!
Greg, I'm also following the same newbie program!! Good Luck |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Talia BC Member Since: 04/16/2007 Total Posts: 26 4 Weeks Ago |
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PS. Greg, did you add a couple weeks to the program? Cause my race is on june 1st and i'm officially starting week 1 of 18 on Monday |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 4 Weeks Ago |
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Talia,
You are correct! I jumped the gun. My paper calendar was correct, but im my mind the gun had started...a few weeks early.
I will be reposting the corrected timeline. However, I will use your start date of this Monday. I'll just have 2 more weeks of base building! Yippee.
Thanks for the correction. I can always count on my fellow FJers in keeping me honest.
G |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 3 Weeks Ago |
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--------------------------- WEEK 2 of 18 Mon. Feb 4th--------------------
Mon Bike 20 miles; run 45 minutes
Tues Swim 1000 yds.
Wed Bike 25 miles.; run 35 min
Thur Swim 1250 yds.
Fri Bike 30 miles.; run 55 min
Sat Swim 1000 yds.
Sun Rest
Are you sticking to plan?
-------------------------------------- Week 2 of 18 -------------------- |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Ron CT Member Since: 10/26/2007 Total Posts: 43 3 Weeks Ago |
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I'm not sure if I have an exact plan...
Put I rode 35 miles on Saturday
30 miles on Sunday
Rode 32 miles this morning Average sped 15+
Swam 2250yds (1.3 mi) This evenign...
I stared with two aday sessions...Running...I've used the treadmill abit...but I been skipping Rope for the past 3 months...I'm upto 1:15 burn up about thousand calories...I've been doing that daily.
I don't have a plan...excepthat I do alot of conditioning...
Does anyone have any suggestions?
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Talia BC Member Since: 04/16/2007 Total Posts: 26 2 Weeks Ago |
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I'm sticking to my plan so far!
Also on week 2 of 18
Monday:AM Spin 45 min / PM Swim workout 1km
Tuesday:AM Run 40 min / PM Swim workout 1.25km
Wednesday: PM Spin 1hr
Thursday:AM Run 35 min / PM Swim workout 1km
Friday: Rest Day - maybe an extra swim
Saturday:AM Spinning class - 45min
Sunday:AM Run 55 min
So far so good, getting up really early to get the running and spinning out of the way before work, and then swimming after work, starting to get into a good routine and am not bothered by the cold/dark/lonely mornings anymore!!
Keep up the good work!
Talia |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Vickie TX Member Since: 03/10/2006 Total Posts: 86 2 Weeks Ago |
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Looking good guys, keep it up!!!!! Vickie |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 2 Weeks Ago |
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Ron,
You may want to refer to the plan referred to online. Sounds like you are getting some good workouts in during the week. You might consider a few things as you go:
Spacing bike workouts with runs and swims allowing you body to recover activity specific muscles.
You may want to assess if you are getting enough low heart rate exercize for distance...that is to keep your heart rate lower over a longer distance to get your "base miles" in here in the off-season.
Look at strength training. Something I know I should do.
Talia.....nice job in keeping up the workouts. I am holding the fort down at home this week so getting my workouts in has been a challenge. (see workout profile). I think I need to get some weekend workout time in as a result.
Keep up the effort, it's going to pay off at the finish line.
- G |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 2 Weeks Ago |
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Vickie,
Did you post your 1/2 marathon results somewhere?!
- G |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Vickie TX Member Since: 03/10/2006 Total Posts: 86 2 Weeks Ago |
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Greg,
Nope, I hadn't done a post. The down and dirty is I PR'ed by 52 seconds (hey it all counts right?) It was the first race I started in the porta potty line, maybe I should reconsider my race plan!? ;) Vickie |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 2 Weeks Ago |
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Vickie,
Starting out the "gate" huh..well you still PR'd. Good for you!
Greg |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 12 Days Ago |
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--------------------------- WEEK 3 of 18 Mon. Feb 4th--------------------
Mon Bike 20 miles; run 45 minutes
Tues Swim 1000 yds.
Wed Bike 25 miles.; run 40 min
Thur Swim 1250 yds.
Fri Bike 35 miles.; run 60 min
Sat Swim 1250 yds.
Sun Rest
Well, I made it into the pool twice during the week and took in more aerobic cross-training. However, did end the week with a long slow 2 hour run. Time to get back on track this week.
-------------------------------------- Week 3 of 18 --------------------
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 12 Days Ago |
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Training thoughts & tips:
1. I was told to train during my base period with 2/3 of time in zone 2. I found this difficult to maintain during my long 2 hour run, nonetheless I did it. Anyone have any thoughts about the effectiveness of this approach vs. maintaining zone 3?
2. Swimming posture.. I was reading that you want to keep your body on the "slipzone" which suggests the following:
- Keep head up with goggles just below water.
- Maintain a long body; full strokes but not going to fast on arms
- Small easy kicks as only 5% of propulsion comes from legs.
How many of you actually incorporate skill building training drills into each and every practice?
Good luck this week. |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Nicole VA Member Since: 11/24/2006 Total Posts: 127 12 Days Ago |
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Greg, technique drills are incorporated in every single workout we swim...our coach establishes a rest interval (20 or 30 seconds between) at the end of each which makes you focus on technique and not making an actual interval (or pace per whatever distance we are swimming). Drills may only be a quarter or less of the whole workout but they usually relate in some way shape or form to the main set. |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Talia BC Member Since: 04/16/2007 Total Posts: 26 12 Days Ago |
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Hello all,
my week 2 was great! Stuck to the program and didn't skip any workouts, even got in a couple cross country skis for some extra activity.
Week 3 will be a bit more challenging as I'm off to vancouver for the weekend - but i've done some juggling with my schedule and will still be able to get all my training done as planned.
Week 3 of 18:
Monday: AM Spinning 45 min / PM Swimming 1000
Tuesday: AM running 45 min / PM Swimming 1250
Wednesday: AM Spinning 60 min
Thursday: AM Running 40 min / PM Swimming 1250
Friday: Rest
Saturday: AM Spinning 60 min
Sunday: AM Running 60 min
hope everyone has a great week! |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 11 Days Ago |
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Fish,
Good tip on technique. As a self-trainer, I am trying to figure out how to improve my technique on my own...a bit of a challenge.
I just can't find time to meet with a coach as my schedule is way to erratic. So, I purchased a couple of books and try to incorporate what I can.
Greg
Keep up the great work. |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 4 Days Ago |
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--------------------------- WEEK 4 of 18 Mon. Feb 18th--------------------
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RECOVERY WEEK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mon Bike 20 miles; run 40 minutes
Tues Swim 1000 yds.
Wed Bike 20 miles.; run 30 min
Thur Swim 1000 yds.
Fri Bike 30 miles.; run 50 min
Sat Swim 1000 yds.
Sun Rest
This week will be technical focus during pool training.
- Swimming on the bouy
- Balance
- Swimming from the hips
All leading to a reduction of arm turns by working on "mass management"
Force = Mass X Acceleration (I'll be working on mass)
Good luck.
-------------------------------------- Week 4 of 18 --------------------
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Nicole VA Member Since: 11/24/2006 Total Posts: 127 4 Days Ago |
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"This week will be technical focus during pool training.
- Swimming on the bouy
- Balance
- Swimming from the hips
All leading to a reduction of arm turns by working on "mass management"
Force = Mass X Acceleration (I'll be working on mass)"
Greg, I hope you swim with the bouy not on the buoy!! Hee hee!! Head position will help with that streamline...focus on the tiles on the bottom of the pool...also, rotate from your hips and core, not your shoulders...wide arm entry gets you more mechanical advantage from your lever arm...a few more things to think about while swimming!! Congrats on a well deserved rest week...they are my favorite!!
:) |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 4 Days Ago |
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Not ON the bouy eh Fish? No wonder my balance is off... I'll have to try it again correctly on Wednesday. ;)
I did manage to swim easier today while swimming almost the same speed as an all-out swim. However, I'll have to work on the stroke as I fall back into bad habits quickly.
I found that if I change from a rear quadrant to and forward quadrant swimmer, my glide is MUCH improved. My goal is to count strokes using this new technique with each swim. My book says don't try and swim any faster until you can do so without gaining more arm strokes. Good thing it's a recovery week.
Keep on floating, swimming..dog-paddling or whatever it takes to "tri".
Greg |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Todd CT Member Since: 04/11/2006 Total Posts: 75 4 Days Ago |
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Hi Greg,
Who are you using for swim technique? I (not ever swimming previous to '06) got into the Total Immersion swim technique. TI's method is the front quadrant swim technique. Just curious!
Todd |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Nicole VA Member Since: 11/24/2006 Total Posts: 127 4 Days Ago |
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Front quadrant swimming...has to do with which muscles you are using because you get more power from the bigger muscles...biceps etc v. triceps. |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 4 Days Ago |
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Todd and Nicole,
Front quadrant swimming is a "TI" (Total Immersion) term. Having been a rear quadrant swimmer I was not taking advantage of the glide on my forward hand. My in water hand would be taking a down stroke long before my above water hand entered the water, leaving my downward hand in the "rear quadrant of the circle".
As a result my glide efficiency was low and my stroke length extremely short. So that will be my key focus.
I am using the "TI" method starting from lesson 1...floating on the back. I'm attempting to retrain myself all over again.
Greg |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Todd CT Member Since: 04/11/2006 Total Posts: 75 3 Days Ago |
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Greg, The TI method has been working real well for me. I'm happy with my swim progression. I started with the book and was having a hard time visualizing how to put everything together. Last Jan I took a two day TI course up in New Hampshire from a certified TI instructor. It included about 6hours of pool time with underwater video-VERY helpful. This winter I bought the drill cards and the breathing DVD. All have been useful as I have become much more comfortable and efficient in the water! I know the YWCA in downtown Minne has TI instructors(We stay in the Hyatt right next door and I often workout at the Y. I was thinking of taking somemore instruction there) if your near the area.
Good Luck! May we all swim like the fishes!!!
Todd
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Nicole VA Member Since: 11/24/2006 Total Posts: 127 3 Days Ago |
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Greg good luck retraining yourself...you are a brave soul but smart especially if you don't have someone watching over you and helping you correct your stroke. Whenever we swim and especially on long sets (like last night's main set of 6 x 600...yes 6...arms are still tired today) when we are going for consistent pacing I always count my strokes...it forces me to think about what I'm doing at all times which is something I didn't really focus on in the past...but it's also cool because I can tell how my pacing is going based on how many strokes I've taken by the halfway point of the 50 meter length and where my lane partner is passing me in the opposite direction. Once you get back into drills...my coach's favorite is 9 x 100 (or you can do it in 50's or 25's really) first three decrease stroke count, second three decrease time and third three decrease both...or my favorite workout is to start with paddles and fins do two 100's counting my strokes, then I take off one fin and do another 2 100's counting my strokes and being within 1 stroke of the last set, then removing the other fin, then a paddle, then another paddle...all with the goal of being within 1 stroke of the last set...it's a fun workout when you need a day of rest!! Happy swimming all!! :) |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 3 Days Ago |
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Nicole...you are truly the "fish"! Oyeve on the yardage.
Todd, Yes I have already looked up the TI workshops in MPLS. I would like to do the 2 day in March but I think I will be out of town that weekend. I may try another in May?
Nicole, it is very hard doing it alone without oversight, but at this point it's about all I can work in. I might reach out to a TI instructor and see if I can't do a once a month checkin or something.
....Here's to swimming like fishes.
Greg |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Jane
Member Since: 01/30/2006 Total Posts: 65 2 Days Ago |
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Janeymac Nicole they are some drills you do - well done!
Greg sounds like you have a hectic schedule alright.... As I said over in the Random Chit Chat thread I am considering entering a half IM in September - there are only 3 over here in Ireland so the big trick is actually getting entered and getting your spot. Should be another drill in itself....
Anyway am watching this thread with interest as a result...
Jane |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 37.6 Hours Ago |
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Jane,
Only three 1/2 irons to choose from? Now that sounds like a challenge. Maybe you need to jump the pond and find a race here.
Hope you find your inspiration to register.
Greg |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 37.6 Hours Ago |
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Todd,
It's a slow road self-training and yes, I have a hard time picturing if I am doing the drills correctly. I drilled for about 45 minutes yesterday which seemed to help.
I swam next to a pair of younger girls, the older tutoring the junior. Even the older armstroke rate started at 19 on the first 25, 20 on second 21 on third.
With focus and patience, I can do 13 strokes on 25 yards. Now, its mechanics to repeat...head. hips. reach.
Keep you informed.
Greg |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Jim CA Member Since: 08/27/2005 Total Posts: 468 23.5 Hours Ago |
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13 is pretty dang good Greg. My lowest count is 15, and that's with a really solid push off! I too have had to self train with the TI book,and I am also considering a local clinic that they have here from time to time. I may just do this as a B-day present to myself as today is the day. :o)
JC1.5 |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Todd CT Member Since: 04/11/2006 Total Posts: 75 20.8 Hours Ago |
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Go for it Jim, you deserve it. Tell'm I said so!
Todd |
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Re: Half Ironman Training In Progress - 2008
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Greg MN Member Since: 02/20/2007 Total Posts: 362 3.8 Hours Ago |
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JC 1.5.....
If you are going to give yourself a gift...send yourself to MN for our program. I'm sure Todd will fly out as well. It'll be a real party!
Even Fish can come and learn the vocabulary...front vs. rear quadrant swimming...which really doesn't have anything to do with biceps/triceps. :) But hey, she as she swims faster than us all she can use whatever vocab she likes..isn't that right fish?!
Greg |
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